A very enlightening conversation, especially for Catholic men. I believe it may be more common than not for Catholic parents not to see eye to eye on many parental decisions. I would guess that the one who truly believes in the faith as handed down by Jesus Christ would be the one to handle a situation like this father and that the one who is not a “stickler for details” like his wife may not necessarily be translated into who is more faithful or believing than the other. I have found this to be the truth in my own experience as a faithful husband and father. And yet, as much as my beloved spouse fought me on so many decisions regarding the raising and discipline of our children, all of our children have a much closer relationship with their mother than with myself; socially speaking. I am the 8th of 12 children and, like most young children, I knew which of my parents were most likely to affirm any idea or request. This did not mean that I loved my mother more than my father and so I understand why our three grown adults have a greater affinity towards their mother than for myself. There is no regret, anger, or jealousy in my soul but there can be an occasional bout of sadness in it all.
Great piece, Patrick. It takes fortitude to deny fatherly blessings to your daughter's wannabe husband. I had to do that myself. It wasn't for the same reasons as Jim's, but for what I saw as a lack of respect for my daughter. He married her anyway, and turned into a fantastic husband and father. But it was important for him to know where I draw the line.
"We know that all things work for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose." Romans 8:28
As we read in 1 Corinthians 13, all our talents are worth nothing without love. Love isn't pompous, or inflated, or rude. Believing you have to give manly man hard talk to a man you've never met, and putting real love (patience, kindness) to the side? Is that not putting faith in yourself and putting limits on God?
I heard this call in real time it was great! I loved the no nonsense directness. I shared this with my husband and told him if ever we found ourselves in the same situation , this would be the ONLY answer to give the young man asking for our daughters hand. This conversation also gave me the opportunity to remind my daughter of her worth, she’s only 12 but it’s important she learns her value now to ward off some schmuck down the road who will try to “low ball” her. Thanks for the dad-vice Mr. Madrid! God bless
I have to say I wished you had counseled this dad to speak with his priest. Let the priest sort this out with dad. The priest has got the pastoral experience, and he knows the family. The priest sits in the confessional day after day, he hears the sins of his people, he knows their struggle, as well as his struggle with his own sins every day. The church is a hospital, and the priest has the grace of God, and God’s love, to know how, and when to reach people’s hearts. This is a complex situation and a wrong step and it could end badly.
This column does a great job outlining the Catholic teaching. Great, everybody knows that. What’s needed is a pastoral understanding of the hearts involved. You know how if you meet a holy person, they can see right into your heart, all your sins? They don’t become strident and judgmental. No, they approach you with the deep love of God, and intense prayer, and guidance from the Holy Spirit for THIS particular person in front of them.
You should know when to advise people to go to their priest. This was one of those times.
Your perspective on this issue contains several significant problems.
First and foremost, as the father of five daughters, I have expertise in this matter that priests simply don't have. I've dealt directly with boyfriends and suitors, drawing from lived experience that can't be acquired in seminary or the confessional. Priests are by no means "marriage experts" merely because they hear confessions from married people. While they certainly have expertise in addressing sinful behavior, they lack the specific experience of dealing one-on-one as a father with boyfriends and suitors.
Second, your comment commits the fallacy of false dichotomy: either seek advice from an experienced fellow dad or go to a priest. Both options can be valuable, but in this particular case, consulting a father who has successfully navigated these exact challenges is far superior to simply asking a priest about it.
Third, your position wrongly suggests that fathers should abdicate their God-given role as protectors of their daughters to the clergy. Catholic teaching establishes parents, not priests, as the primary educators and guardians of their children. This includes decisions about courtship and relationships.
Finally, you characterize this as a "complex" situation when it's actually straightforward. The facts are clear: a boyfriend has seduced this man's daughter and persuaded her to live with him in defiance of her parents' explicit teaching and wishes. Not only is it the father's right to intervene and set boundaries with this boyfriend, it's his sacred duty, particularly under these circumstances.
The dad who called me did exactly the right thing by seeking advice from an experienced father. I did the right thing by providing him concrete, actionable counsel. This was definitely not a situation where I should have offered nothing more than "go ask a priest." You'll never hear me give that kind of weak, evasive response on my show.
They are shacking up. This gives the answer. If they are shacking up before marriage it means they are both completely lost in their sin, totally in rebellion against God, and are not at all ready to get married. Additionally, the father should tell his daughter and the man that the very fact he was such a horrible influence disqualifies him from getting his blessing. Instead, he's simply the man who took his daughter into a sinful lifestyle of living together before marriage. To be blunt, unless they are willing to break up and individually get right with God, I'd suggest the father have nothing to do with either one of them except for absolute emergencies. Because if they won't do the right thing and separate then they are literally in league with Satan.
This is confusing because in the into you said "I did indeed have “the talk” with all five of the men who asked for [my daughters'] hands in marriage," but in the radio transcript you said, "I have five daughters and three of them so far have gotten married, and I have had to have that talk with my three sons in law." Just curious about the discrepancy.
I can clear up the confusion. When I first had that conversation a few years ago, I hadn’t yet had “the talk” with the two men who would eventually ask to marry my remaining two daughters. By the time I wrote the article based on that earlier call, both of my daughters had gotten engaged and, thus, I subsequently did have “the talk“ with the other two guys.
Sorry, but you’ve missed the central point of the article. The father did have “the talk” with his daughter—many times. That’s precisely why he was so exasperated. He and his wife raised her in a devout Catholic home, yet she’s choosing not to listen. Now the father is prepared to explain directly to the young man exactly why he won’t give his blessing for the marriage under the current circumstances. It really feels like you didn't read the piece before commenting, because your remark is quite wide of the mark.
Nonsense. What a terrible attitude on your part. If you listen to the call, you’ll see that the father did indeed raise his daughter well and she went off the rails. Your gratuitous assumption that he raised her “like a whore” is just stupid. Human beings have free will, and even people who are raised well sometimes choose to do bad things.
As I explained in my response to your comment above, he has had the talk with her, and he is holding her accountable. You're not only beating a dead horse here, you're beating the wrong dead horse.
A very enlightening conversation, especially for Catholic men. I believe it may be more common than not for Catholic parents not to see eye to eye on many parental decisions. I would guess that the one who truly believes in the faith as handed down by Jesus Christ would be the one to handle a situation like this father and that the one who is not a “stickler for details” like his wife may not necessarily be translated into who is more faithful or believing than the other. I have found this to be the truth in my own experience as a faithful husband and father. And yet, as much as my beloved spouse fought me on so many decisions regarding the raising and discipline of our children, all of our children have a much closer relationship with their mother than with myself; socially speaking. I am the 8th of 12 children and, like most young children, I knew which of my parents were most likely to affirm any idea or request. This did not mean that I loved my mother more than my father and so I understand why our three grown adults have a greater affinity towards their mother than for myself. There is no regret, anger, or jealousy in my soul but there can be an occasional bout of sadness in it all.
Great piece, Patrick. It takes fortitude to deny fatherly blessings to your daughter's wannabe husband. I had to do that myself. It wasn't for the same reasons as Jim's, but for what I saw as a lack of respect for my daughter. He married her anyway, and turned into a fantastic husband and father. But it was important for him to know where I draw the line.
Looks like God works through the experience of love and not through our manly hard talks.
Don't try to limit God. He works through both. All the time.
God is Love, and his work is through love:
"We know that all things work for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose." Romans 8:28
As we read in 1 Corinthians 13, all our talents are worth nothing without love. Love isn't pompous, or inflated, or rude. Believing you have to give manly man hard talk to a man you've never met, and putting real love (patience, kindness) to the side? Is that not putting faith in yourself and putting limits on God?
It needed to be said though, and maybe Dennis’s witness pricked son-in-law’s conscience and he became a good husband and father.
I heard this call in real time it was great! I loved the no nonsense directness. I shared this with my husband and told him if ever we found ourselves in the same situation , this would be the ONLY answer to give the young man asking for our daughters hand. This conversation also gave me the opportunity to remind my daughter of her worth, she’s only 12 but it’s important she learns her value now to ward off some schmuck down the road who will try to “low ball” her. Thanks for the dad-vice Mr. Madrid! God bless
Great work, Patrick!!
I have to say I wished you had counseled this dad to speak with his priest. Let the priest sort this out with dad. The priest has got the pastoral experience, and he knows the family. The priest sits in the confessional day after day, he hears the sins of his people, he knows their struggle, as well as his struggle with his own sins every day. The church is a hospital, and the priest has the grace of God, and God’s love, to know how, and when to reach people’s hearts. This is a complex situation and a wrong step and it could end badly.
This column does a great job outlining the Catholic teaching. Great, everybody knows that. What’s needed is a pastoral understanding of the hearts involved. You know how if you meet a holy person, they can see right into your heart, all your sins? They don’t become strident and judgmental. No, they approach you with the deep love of God, and intense prayer, and guidance from the Holy Spirit for THIS particular person in front of them.
You should know when to advise people to go to their priest. This was one of those times.
Your perspective on this issue contains several significant problems.
First and foremost, as the father of five daughters, I have expertise in this matter that priests simply don't have. I've dealt directly with boyfriends and suitors, drawing from lived experience that can't be acquired in seminary or the confessional. Priests are by no means "marriage experts" merely because they hear confessions from married people. While they certainly have expertise in addressing sinful behavior, they lack the specific experience of dealing one-on-one as a father with boyfriends and suitors.
Second, your comment commits the fallacy of false dichotomy: either seek advice from an experienced fellow dad or go to a priest. Both options can be valuable, but in this particular case, consulting a father who has successfully navigated these exact challenges is far superior to simply asking a priest about it.
Third, your position wrongly suggests that fathers should abdicate their God-given role as protectors of their daughters to the clergy. Catholic teaching establishes parents, not priests, as the primary educators and guardians of their children. This includes decisions about courtship and relationships.
Finally, you characterize this as a "complex" situation when it's actually straightforward. The facts are clear: a boyfriend has seduced this man's daughter and persuaded her to live with him in defiance of her parents' explicit teaching and wishes. Not only is it the father's right to intervene and set boundaries with this boyfriend, it's his sacred duty, particularly under these circumstances.
The dad who called me did exactly the right thing by seeking advice from an experienced father. I did the right thing by providing him concrete, actionable counsel. This was definitely not a situation where I should have offered nothing more than "go ask a priest." You'll never hear me give that kind of weak, evasive response on my show.
They are shacking up. This gives the answer. If they are shacking up before marriage it means they are both completely lost in their sin, totally in rebellion against God, and are not at all ready to get married. Additionally, the father should tell his daughter and the man that the very fact he was such a horrible influence disqualifies him from getting his blessing. Instead, he's simply the man who took his daughter into a sinful lifestyle of living together before marriage. To be blunt, unless they are willing to break up and individually get right with God, I'd suggest the father have nothing to do with either one of them except for absolute emergencies. Because if they won't do the right thing and separate then they are literally in league with Satan.
This is confusing because in the into you said "I did indeed have “the talk” with all five of the men who asked for [my daughters'] hands in marriage," but in the radio transcript you said, "I have five daughters and three of them so far have gotten married, and I have had to have that talk with my three sons in law." Just curious about the discrepancy.
I can clear up the confusion. When I first had that conversation a few years ago, I hadn’t yet had “the talk” with the two men who would eventually ask to marry my remaining two daughters. By the time I wrote the article based on that earlier call, both of my daughters had gotten engaged and, thus, I subsequently did have “the talk“ with the other two guys.
Sorry, but you’ve missed the central point of the article. The father did have “the talk” with his daughter—many times. That’s precisely why he was so exasperated. He and his wife raised her in a devout Catholic home, yet she’s choosing not to listen. Now the father is prepared to explain directly to the young man exactly why he won’t give his blessing for the marriage under the current circumstances. It really feels like you didn't read the piece before commenting, because your remark is quite wide of the mark.
Nonsense. What a terrible attitude on your part. If you listen to the call, you’ll see that the father did indeed raise his daughter well and she went off the rails. Your gratuitous assumption that he raised her “like a whore” is just stupid. Human beings have free will, and even people who are raised well sometimes choose to do bad things.
As I explained in my response to your comment above, he has had the talk with her, and he is holding her accountable. You're not only beating a dead horse here, you're beating the wrong dead horse.